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    alternate win conditions

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    Chiodosin1
    Ultra Rare

    Chaotic Username : Chiodosin1
    Chaotic Coins : 940
    Location : Minnesota, US

    alternate win conditions

    Post by Chiodosin1 on Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:21 am

    lets talk alternate win cons shall we. For those who don't know some games have many ways to win and some have more. In the case for a lot of trading card and other games however there tends to be 1 "direct" path to victory, weather its hitting your opponents with enough damage, controlling certain parts of the field or in chaotic's case killing all your opponents creatures. However in plenty of them there's usually another way to go about winning either through other rules or card that directly allow you to do this. chaotic has no such rules, without other cards saying so the only way to win is killin all the creatures, plain and simple. however 4 alternate win con cards exist Imo. The obvsious direct one of heat cannon, 50mc you win, easy enough. aa'une counts because instead of focusing on winning as many battles as you can its all about just winning the 1 key battle with aa'une. stelgar VM I feel also counts since the the goal instead of winning battles in just stalling and keeping creatures from stelgar for enough turns (though unlike the others "enough turns to win" isn't spelled out) ae'dak is the final one since again it become all about the 10 counters. random note gantrak doesn't quite count since the main goal is still attackin, having battles and killing creatures just using melody of marr instead of canon of casualty. alot of people feel stelgar aa'une and cannon are reasonable enough some are stronger than others but they can all be done. however aerdak tends to be considered unfair and probably too powerful.

    so brings me to the topic of making alternate win cons. Its certainly not easy. part 1 is it has to be diffrent enough from the usual way to win to really feel alternate, burn decks vs revial decks are kinda using diffrent ways to win but not really it doesn't have the direct "I win in this new way" kinda feel that the named cards have. next thing it has to be something you can do with cards already in the game, a card that lets me win if my opponent has no attacks in there hand is useless because no card removes attack from a players hands without also adding them, that's a more extreme example but without proper support alternate win cons just can't be played. next of course is in theory you want it to be the same or worse than winning the normal way since most cards in a game are designed to win the normal way that's where you want to focus to be while cards and decks using alternate win cons are there to spice things up and provide some fun and maybe be good enough to pay attention to once and a while. Which brings us to the final key, interactivity you need to be able to stop your opponent from winning, or at least win yourself the normal way while your opponent is doing this. If my win con is involves having creatures die or take damage my opponent will lose for just playing the game. again that's a extreme option but in general   if attacking your dudes and winning battles doesn't disrupt your plans there's a bit of a problem.

    bored yet? too bad I like talking and I'd like to talk about the 4 alternate win cons and how they relate to the 4 things I just mentioned

    Aa'une:
    1. having 1 dude win a battle by combing an attack mugic gear and creature than using his effect to wipe a board feels different than other 1 creature decks who usually start strong and just try to punch through everyone.
    2. all the card aa'une needs are printed other than that he just needs a way to win a battle and protect the parts. chaotic can certainly make that happen so no problem
    3. aa'une is pretty underwelming and pretty much needs fluidmorphers to win which take some time to build up to enough to win a battle with him you sometimes also have to get rage out of your deck so its not usually an early win.
    4. winning the battle with aa'une wrecks this combo pretty hard, aa'une can't avoid combat so at some point you gotta throw down. if you can beat aa'unes support before he can build up enough that can also do the trick and of course if you can interact the the mugic or gear but that's mostly gravy since not every deck can do that.

    Heat cannon:
    1. as only "pure" alt win con in chaotic (literally saying you win the game) its pretty clear this one feels special no need to even kill a single creature as long as you can pay 50mc the game is over.
    2. obviously fluidmorphers and najarin (ew) give you enough ways to crank out the counters you need and when 1 of the morphers lets you dig for the location all the pieces are in place.
    3. 50 mc is alot, it defiently on the high end 8.3 per creature if you can manage to keep all 6 alive 10 with 5, 12.5 with 4, ect. point is its gonna take a few battles to get all these counters going not to mention mugic and effects of your creatures you use set you back, its not a trival task.
    4. all the mugic counters are on dudes, and as you saw as you kill creatures it takes more counters on the rest fluidmorphers are pretty squishy and with there abilty to use mugic restricted you can usually it happen. (najarin can be an auto win if you running FM yourself while having a najarin can be an auto win for you buuut that's really a note on him not heat cannon itself)

    Stelgar VM:
    1. this one I am the most one the fence about having to build him up is really were he varies from the normal smashy decks the buildup to a card that wins on its own is kinda what alterntate wins are about so I'll let him pass.
    2. chaotic provides ways to protect indivdual creatures with defenders and of course both version of phelphor let you keep people away from stelgar so the deck does what it needs
    3. stelgar is on the more straight forward end of win cons, realistly you need 7+ turns for stelgar to be at maximum power but with only 1 battle or less per turn its not a huge amount of time
    4. stelgar is pretty stech in that it wins by avoiding battles which makes it difficult for decks that can't deal with the ways it does so. decks without swift, burn or a way to save up for the big fight with stelgar can find themselves helpless as they slide around the board fighting pointless battles waiting for death. chaotic is a game of bad matchups though and enough decks can find a way to break the lines to make it reasonable.

    Aerdak:
    1. wiping out all your opponents creatures with an effect rather than the usual combat is defiently on par for an alt win con.
    2. again you really only need ways to protect aerdak and ways to give opponents range, both of which exist enough in chaotic.
    3. 10 mc ended up being a little bit on the low side (see 4 for a bit more) 10 attacks can happen in only 2-4 battles which is all you need realisticlly. giving your opponents enough range to win really only take about 1 xelfe, a 6 creature wipe is rarely required and killing the best 4 fighters often does the trick.
    4. so obviously is the most powerful win cons and number 3 is really the reason, win cons should balance easy and interactablity (more of one can get away with less of the other) but at a certain point too much ease just turns it into a "have this or lose" type deal and aerdak is in that boat. if you can't kill your opponents creature very quickly your probably not gonna get there, aerdak is often protected by denail or sheltering mugics/gear and so burn on just xelfe or aerdak doesn't always get there. the game has no easy way around defender so jumping at key creatures also will give you nothing, and when I say fast damage will get you there I mean real fast, you need them to play probably no more than 2 attacks per battle if you want to get past the defender wall without the bomb going off. other than that something like a bloot deck with enough courage sap can also get there but again that's probably 1 card and even then 2 battles of them not fighting  bloot can make it happen.

    sooo why write this? well I wanna here any of your own opinions about alternate win cons in chaotic (or in general, whateves) and I also be curious what sort of alternate win con ideas I'd like to see one that spreads somehow and when enough creatures are contaminated you win or it becomes much easier to win somehow.

    dear god so much text.... sorry


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    King A-Game Darini
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    Chaotic Username : agame
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    Re: alternate win conditions

    Post by King A-Game Darini on Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:55 am

    Well it depends what you mean.. to be honest the only really win condition on here is heat cannon as it doesnt do damage to any creatures . If you wanna count cards that destroy creatures like Aerdak and Aa'une. 10 counters destroy all enemy creatures with range and discard a mugic:your opponent sacrafices a creature. Then a few things to consider.

    Unheard melody,the 4 mugics that destroy a target creature that has 0 in a certain stat.the 4 cheifteins that discard 2 mugic cards,destroy target creature with 0 in a certain stat.

    These would be alternative win conditions as they dont rely on taking away a creatures energy.

    If aerdak and Aa'une count these can too.. aerdak bassicaly needs Xelfe,Aaune needs a lot of help and even if he does get flipped you might of needed to use mugic to get him there (like nourishing nocturne and psionic to make sure he wins) The cards I stated above can actually be used to wipe out an entire team in 1 Go and I could tell yah how. Besides mugic reprise,castle bodrahn,and najarin. We have Enre-Hep high muge if you were to say make a water mipedian deck (only like 2 have water lol but harmonics and undin can help here) and use deadwater devastation a few times while also using Na-inna's and innerflood to move the opponents MC to one creature and move your own MC to Enre-Hep then you could potentially destroy the whole oposing team with Unheard melody. The stat wise mugic would be more tricky but still.. it can work. (Not with enre for the stat ones)

    Now for Grantrak. You said he doesnt really count as its like the same thing but I'd say it is. It totally changes the game! You dont do damage to the other creatures at all.. only stats and that is definetly an alternative win condition. It's also the only way to effectivly 1 shot something seeing as meek,xerium,tunnels,and the like dont stop the stats from being reduced. The trick is Gronmar(shroud) and gimwei(elementalist pauldron) if i spelled those right.. anyways if you have enough control you can have say 2 vial of liquid thoughts,2 twister of the elements, other attack control cards and then the key card" Sink scream " (x2) this card instantly drops a stat to 0 if you have the right element it can also be used for the certain mugic if you have a way to gain the counters up without fluidmorphs. If you play it right and have a fair bit of luck you might just be able to get 4 sink scream kills in a row. And if you have that one location ,it was super rare, basically it plays back the attacks you just played. It is actually possible to do 5 sink screams in a row and then still have 1 in hand. It'd have to be super lucky (unless you have crazy location control too.. but Id doubt it)

    Stelgar,VM he isnt really a alternative,hes more of a trump card ,he can be beaten by normal means and is just a build up card like mehin and if you look up Blzv's other Illexia verstion of Vollkom in App. Its really just like Compost but slightly different.


    Last edited by King A-Game Darini on Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:02 am; edited 1 time in total


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    King A-Game Darini
    Mipedian

    Chaotic Username : agame
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    Re: alternate win conditions

    Post by King A-Game Darini on Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:57 am

    Double post! Or like Glost..

    Also I thought of another card with 3 ver. Kolmo! One of my favorite mipedians and my favorite Danian (besides neekwin and nunkworn) also i'm pretty sure you decided to post this after reading my meek aerdak deck and started thinking about it so I thought Id reply.

    As for the no way to get around defender 1. Pouril forest. Its a location and seems to be the only way but it still exists. And 2. Phelphor of the deep.. if you can move the defender from its defendie and make it non adjacent then it works. I could argue for Agitos elequient motivator,mipedim mirage and I think 2 other battlegear that I cant rememver but those are more situational.


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    Re: alternate win conditions

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