Chaotic Backup Forum

Members Log In. Show your support. Boost our moral. Don't just browse, log in.

King's Royal Chaotic Backup


    What Cards Would be Banned if the Game had a Stable Meta?

    Share
    avatar
    King A-Game Darini
    Mipedian

    Chaotic Username : agame
    Chaotic Coins : 624
    Location : Behind you

    Re: What Cards Would be Banned if the Game had a Stable Meta?

    Post by King A-Game Darini on Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:00 pm

    @Marril


    The vast majority have Abilitys to spend their MC on. While not over powered outright, the sheer amount of times a fluidmorph can pull out their stuff is OP.

    Fla'gamp being a prime example. Especially with that one overworlder..starts with a B.

    Only Lam'inkal and to a lesser degree Nunk'worn dont but their elements,stats and side abilitys really really make up for that.

    Im not saying I dont like playing with them but if I'm being honest they break the game. Having access to Scr and deadwater are just crazy. Deadwater and unheard can just ruin a najarin.

    Najarin and Tart are Marrilian counters because Marrilians are overpowered. Almost Every chief has a crazy abilitty. The main 4 khralls counter entire tribes..

    If I had to pick a strongest tribe itd be marrillian. Overworlders only put up a threat cause they're the only things that directly interfere.

    I would HATE if Najarin ff and Tartareck psi got banned and everything else didnt. Their would be no reason not to run fluidmorphs or Cheifs. All their checks are gone. Roar of the mob? Useless. Itd be a dead card especially if naj is gone and fluidmorphs could just spend the mc before it resolves. Frozen fire would be it and if you run flagamp its literally nothing.

    This is a rock paper sissors game to a degree with all the specific hate cards like magmon retaliator etc and if Marrillians can take every tribe then they should have these huge counters to them.

    You also could just run the foothold that brings chiefs back anyway... they waste tartarecks counters and that 1 OW mugic for nothing


    ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    "What are you gonna do? STAB ME!?" -stab Victim Mipedian
    avatar
    KingChaotic
    newb

    Chaotic Username : KingChaotic
    Chaotic Coins : 4

    None.

    Post by KingChaotic on Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:59 pm

    The great thing about Chaotic is there's no such thing as too OP. Each card, each mechanic, has advantages and disadvantages. Strength's and weaknesses. Even decks that claim to be OTK have flaws. And even if there was an OP card it would just have the ability "unique". So you can only have 1 copy of it. Get rid of that copy and it's buh-bye. Even Najarin FF. Even if someone gives it a challor you can discord of disarming the challor, and use a Kopond to cast Cannon of Casualty and Najarin FF is gone. If he tries to heal Najarin ff just deal out more damage than he can heal.

    You want to counter the danian OTK with Glacier plains cannon? Use a Tarterek Psi Overloader. Give her more WIS and code her. You want to counter a Maxxor PoP with a Xerium Armor? Use a Mipedian with disarm like K.o.l.m.o. and back up cards like Owayki and Headmaster to power him up. Then smash him before he smashes you.

    You want to counter a mipedian control deck? Use your own anti mugic/ability deck. Or better yet do the Danian OTK. Then he won't have a chance to stop you because you'll win first turn.
    avatar
    lazerbem
    Super Rare

    Chaotic Username : lazerbem
    Chaotic Coins : 565
    Location : Everywhere and Nowhere

    Re: What Cards Would be Banned if the Game had a Stable Meta?

    Post by lazerbem on Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:21 pm

    Something doesn't need to be uncounterable to be OP. It just needs to be hard enough that it realistically can't be by most decks.


    ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====

    The Mad One
    avatar
    Oracle Afjak
    Rare

    Chaotic Username : Afjak∞
    Chaotic Coins : 213
    Location : Dranakis Threshold

    A legitimately "overpowered" ban

    Post by Oracle Afjak on Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:44 pm

    @Marrillian wrote:
    "When opposing creatures gain mugic counter(s) from a single source, etc."

    Reply:
    Just going to throw this out there: this change would not work. The fluidmorphers aren't gaining counters from the water damage; they are gaining counters from fluidmorph, which is a triggered ability. Each individual trigger, although they were triggered from the same event, is entirely separate and would be considered their own source as far as the rules are concerned. However, you would prevent cheesing with Heptagon Hail and Flutes.

    Now back to the topic.

    In another thread, I went to define "overpowered" since Chaotic players seem to like throwing that word around for everything. One of the definitions I used is a card that both fits into everything or almost everything, and is too stupidly good to be justified in not using. The kind of card where no matter what type of deck you run, your deck is actually 48 - 1 cards because you can't not include this.

    Primal Smash is the marquee example of this definition.

    This is a card that outdamages every other attack at its cost, and many cards above its cost. Being base damage means that it will most likely be immune to any types of attack hate like discipline and element dropping. Costing 1BP gives it an absurdly high capacity for inclusion. It is a card run in nearly every attack deck of anyone who owns one, with exceptions being extreme. It goes in decks that have no business running it because it's too much value to pass up. This card is so warping that no matter what deck you are playing, you either include it or provide a very strong reason as to why you are running something else in its place, and even then you consider it. The existence of Primal Smash means that if you own it, your decks are 47 cards with 19 build points among your 19 attacks; Primal Smash was never a question.

    Now you reflect on that and try to tell me that that is not overpowered. I, in turn, will show you a fool. Unique is not restriction enough for this abomination.


    ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====
    avatar
    LeGladiateur
    Rare

    Chaotic Username : LeGladiateur
    Chaotic Coins : 96
    Location : Québec, Canada

    Re: What Cards Would be Banned if the Game had a Stable Meta?

    Post by LeGladiateur on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:04 pm

    This is the best argumentation I ever saw to describe my thoughts toward this card.

    Thanks
    avatar
    lazerbem
    Super Rare

    Chaotic Username : lazerbem
    Chaotic Coins : 565
    Location : Everywhere and Nowhere

    Re: What Cards Would be Banned if the Game had a Stable Meta?

    Post by lazerbem on Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:48 pm

    Primal Smash is a staple, but that does not make it OP. Having only one makes it so that you are only going to cheese out ten extra damage at most, hardly game breaking material. So far as I'm concerned, to use a Yugioh example, Primal Smash is like Mystical Space Typhoon/Twin Twister, not like Pot of Greed.

    If someone has Primal Smash in their deck, there's hardly any need to prepare for it as it's just a single beefy 20 damage attack with no extra effects. It's extremely unlikely for it to be abused in such a way as to totally stomp the other player before there's any kind of chance, and it's not going to break the game since as mentioned you can only have one.


    ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====

    The Mad One
    avatar
    King A-Game Darini
    Mipedian

    Chaotic Username : agame
    Chaotic Coins : 624
    Location : Behind you

    Re: What Cards Would be Banned if the Game had a Stable Meta?

    Post by King A-Game Darini on Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:53 pm

    Primal smash and to be fair even though I like this card Twister of the elements do something that messes with the core principle of having build points in the first place. Extremely high damage at a super low cost for no reason and removing 3 (normally 0 cost cards) to the discard.

    At least with twister you need air and water.. but being 1bp with that effect and STILL able to deal 10 with the damage. But you need to compare primal smash to Ash torrent. Ash torrent is a good card but in order to dish out the same amount of damage by needing speed challenge 15, air and fire isnt healthy.  If you look at say magic the gathering cause yugioh isnt the best example for balance. A card like Sol Ring . 1 colorless mana you can bring out an artifact and can instantly tap it for 2 colorless mana. This is game breaking levels of ramp. Every single deck should run a 4 of, of this card because it is that good. But instead its limited down to 1 in the very few formats its allowed in in most its outright banned. It vecomes a game of who gets theirs first.

    Primal does to much for far far to little. It being unique isn't enough of a dowside but it is nice that it cant be a 2 of in EVERY SINGLE DECK. Name one deck that wouldnt do a little better by including this card. Even fluidmorph decks run this. Carniwin does the same thing except actually has a downside and can be dead in your hand if you run 2. Same deal with marksmens preperation and you have to have 2 sooo. With primal nope quick 20 every time no problem.



    Edit: I just reread what afjak said cause I only read yours lazer. You should just go reread it too as I just rewrote what he said by accident but he even wrote it better.


    ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    "What are you gonna do? STAB ME!?" -stab Victim Mipedian
    avatar
    lazerbem
    Super Rare

    Chaotic Username : lazerbem
    Chaotic Coins : 565
    Location : Everywhere and Nowhere

    Re: What Cards Would be Banned if the Game had a Stable Meta?

    Post by lazerbem on Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:19 am

    Yes, I read his, and I disagree that a staple card is considered overpowered. There's no specific cheesing of the game with a Primal Smash, no one's going to win a game they didn't deserve with it, make the opponent unable to play the game, or other dirty stuff. If you get a Primal Smash first, well then you just did 20 damage with an attack. That's powerful, but it's not going to be anything like your example where whoever gets it first has victory assured.

    Not to mention that with the amount of damage mitigation in later eras of Chaotic, beefier attacks are welcome. Using Ash Torrent is kind of a poor example too, as that was in an era where attacks over all were just weaker in general.


    ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====

    The Mad One
    avatar
    King A-Game Darini
    Mipedian

    Chaotic Username : agame
    Chaotic Coins : 624
    Location : Behind you

    Re: What Cards Would be Banned if the Game had a Stable Meta?

    Post by King A-Game Darini on Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:52 pm

    I used ash torrent cause its still a strong card today. Same with rust toxic and the like.

    It was one of the better examples cause it did 20 for 1 build point like primal. It may not be utterly game winning but it is a game changer. Most 1 bp cards do 15 damage or less. If you want a bad example for torrent of flame would be as it does 20 for 2bp and nothing else and you also need both water and fire. Preplexing heat is a strictly better version but the difference for 1bp is -25 wisdom.. hardly seems fair.

    Its just deck constricting in the laziest form. The only decks I wouldnt have primal is something like super element X or fluidmorph and even then I still might throw it in.


    ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    "What are you gonna do? STAB ME!?" -stab Victim Mipedian
    avatar
    lazerbem
    Super Rare

    Chaotic Username : lazerbem
    Chaotic Coins : 565
    Location : Everywhere and Nowhere

    Re: What Cards Would be Banned if the Game had a Stable Meta?

    Post by lazerbem on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:27 pm

    But that's just power creep in action, so long as the game state keeps up, then it's fine. It's like being annoyed that the new Tangath is super strong compared to the old one. Sure, he's stronger, but the game has also moved forward.

    I agree, it's annoying when old stuff is completely fazed out, but in Chaotic this isn't so and letting loose with a Primal Smash if anything helps weaker decks.


    ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====

    The Mad One
    avatar
    King A-Game Darini
    Mipedian

    Chaotic Username : agame
    Chaotic Coins : 624
    Location : Behind you

    Re: What Cards Would be Banned if the Game had a Stable Meta?

    Post by King A-Game Darini on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:54 pm

    Tangath from DoP and the tangaths now have different uses. I can use him and prantix in a fire/earth meeek deck. I can use in training in a fire,earth,water deck and OG in a mix/water fire deck, or just as a defender. Primal doesnt phase anything out it just makes your attack deck smaller by 1 card cause if you don't run it you intentionaly put yourself at a disadvantage. The reason this is bad is unlike on TCO an ultra rare attack like primal (that everyone wants to use) isnt easy to get meaning if i put in a 1 cost that does 15 and you use primal cause you can afford it.. its just a lazy chase rare to sell packs. A 1bp card shouldnt be able out damage a 2bp card for no reason with no requirments involved.


    ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    "What are you gonna do? STAB ME!?" -stab Victim Mipedian
    avatar
    lazerbem
    Super Rare

    Chaotic Username : lazerbem
    Chaotic Coins : 565
    Location : Everywhere and Nowhere

    Re: What Cards Would be Banned if the Game had a Stable Meta?

    Post by lazerbem on Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:43 am

    Then that's debating the marketing of Primal Smash, which is an entirely different subject. Yes, ultra rare cards tend to be must haves so that you can go on to style on people, I don't see the problem. If anything, Primal Smash being a generic ultra rare is more healthy because it means that more people would be able to use it as opposed to some unlucky player consistently drawing into ultra rares they can't use.


    ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====

    The Mad One
    avatar
    King A-Game Darini
    Mipedian

    Chaotic Username : agame
    Chaotic Coins : 624
    Location : Behind you

    Re: What Cards Would be Banned if the Game had a Stable Meta?

    Post by King A-Game Darini on Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:39 pm

    I've said enough on it. If you don't see how the card is to strong for what it costs then you wont see it.

    Afjak already put it perfectly on why it's unhealthy.


    ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    "What are you gonna do? STAB ME!?" -stab Victim Mipedian

    Sponsored content

    Re: What Cards Would be Banned if the Game had a Stable Meta?

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu May 25, 2017 11:21 am