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    "Follow the money"

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    Killua34341
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    "Follow the money"

    Post by Killua34341 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:30 am

    One of the most overly used statements in a lot of contexts by politicians and the like.
    However it's the basis of every economy that existed on the cheeks of earth. In addition economies who lacked the potential of having a constant money income are doomed to hit rock bottom,eventually.

    Chaotic is another victim of the "unforgiving money theory". While it may seem that it's downfall was the lawsuit , but it's just a natural stage of the lifespan of any business ,much like puberty , midlife crisis , the things that could go wrong in life.

    We as people do experience hardships,heck some lives are full of those. However a human is supposed to live through those , chaotic is pretty much on the same boat.Again one might think and blame the lawsuit for this chaos , but it's just natural, and a profitable business should be able to carry on it's journey.

    One thing we should realize and accept full hardheartedly is that:Sooner or later it would have died. The business world savors nothing but money. No matter how much you loved the game or might have favored it amongst anything else, that has absolutely nothing to do with its life expectancy. Keep in mind loving a game wouldn't have an affect , investing in the game would.

    "We did invest but that didn't really change much".
    200 people investing 1000$ = 200,000$
    2m investing 1$ = 2M$

    It should have been clear at this point one of the true reasons this game fell on it's knees.
    "But we love this game so much we kin the love of 2M"
    I'm sure we all do including myself,thought the total money invested is the only important factor.

    A thing i should note about chaotic and especially this game since i'm sure none is willing to do what was done here is
    "Chaotic was never viewed as a business, by the staff and the members and even by itself"
    Even thought "chaotic" is initially a business,it never acted like most businesses do.
    that is the most unique thing which made the fans,employees and everyone who tried the game to get attached,even in my case never did i like a game so much as i liked this one.

    If this game was looking at itself as if it were a business it won't keep the site running for 5 more years,despite the fact it was going down.

    Why would it keep spending on a forsaken project?
    The primary reason this game holds a special place in my heart.
    They did it for the small fan base. They spent money from their own pockets just to relieve those 100 (possibly less) members. It wasn't just business for them,it was clearly viewed as an emotion-filled action done with sincerity.I'm quite sure none is willing to do that nowadays ,even as a person you won't keep on spending money on a wrecked down chair. you can buy yourself a new one.

    Chaotic valued it's fans more than money ,until the last moment it didn't even ask their members for donations for gods sake. It kept its pride as a game, a loving community that values it's customers, and went down gracefully.

    ------------------------------
    "Will it come back?"
    As a person , and as someone who values this community if we're still a 100 or so fanbase
    i wouldn't even think about accepting their kindness and sincerity, it would be rude manners.
    But what i could do is expand this 100 or so community to a community that is worth bringing the game back for and looking at it business wise,not with sympathy and courtesy. we wouldn't like to see this tragedy happen all over again , would we.

    i've written this not as a rant or an on a whim-exclamation,i'm also offering solutions, willing to start expanding the fan base , and repaying what kindness this game have given us. The game is dead that's for sure and that's what you all should keep it mind,but gathering a huge fan base in case the game is brought up under a different name and/or company , we should also take into consideration that it might never come back , in that case i would like to do it as a memorial and a reminder that this game did exist once upon a fairy-tale.

    Some solutions that would greatly contribute to achieving our target would be:

    A virtual show room,and a chat-A site where videos of our past games,the good times and the bad ones too(montages works too!). you can't have a fan base gathering over nothing,you also can't expect people to join and love a game that doesn't exist no more unless they do witness some of the fun.
    "so they go in the site and see all the videos then what?" it would be a chat, chats are the only thing that could keep people roaming around for years and years , you can call it the waiting lobby until the game comes back (if it does) if not it'll be a memorial, here are some examples of successful chats that have no what-so-ever reason but people flock over them.
    drrrchat.com
    sunnyhome.tk

    Reasons it might work-it would serve as a base/domain,a memorial if it fails or not ,and if it did work you'll get a fan base of 1000+(at least they gain lots more).They can talk about anything they like , however the site's looks must have a chaotic theme and/or the name for example "ChaoticTheChat" might look like a 5 year old's atrocious english, but it got where it counts.

    Posters-Another ironically simple solution would be make a poster of blazvatan(high quality)/or any other card you want,and ask if it's alright to be posted in your local card shop or game store, with the site's name(chat,memorial).When it comes to graphics chaotic has almost alien-ic and out of the world graphics,i have never seen a game so far with graphics as good as chaotic so i'm quite sure it'll pique their interest, no need to beg for people to join as a warning, it happens naturally just like love and other matters.

    Reasons it might work-Chaotic is unmatched when it comes to art , it will attract people who see it undoubtly, socially you might find people who have similar tastes so new friends.

    ------------------------------
    The above is but a rough sketch of it, it needs some coding and someone who owns chaotic games videos,the latter would be the hardest to find.

    As a conclusion this may all seem too arduous to some of us , however if you really do think that the game will come back and the moneyworks will begin for a tiny fan base , then reconsider they did alot more than you can possibly think of and they deserve a much bigger fan base.
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    BlzvSprayTan
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by BlzvSprayTan on Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:34 pm

    So TL;DR Chaotic was something special, and its unfortunate what happened, but to show our concern/make an effort as a fan base to bring it back we should work to get a large group of newer players to the game through posters and web display of the game.

    At least that's what I got, and while I don't think it's that bad of an idea, I still really think that Chaotic's fate rests in the hands that are much above ours.


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    Killua34341
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by Killua34341 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 1:04 pm

    Not really ,you're scratching the surface tho, sometimes you should cut back that habit of TL;DR-ing to know what this is about ^~^

    "At least that's what I got, and while I don't think it's that bad of an idea, I still really think that Chaotic's fate rests in the hands that are much above ours."
    -you're supposed to give them a reason to get back just like how an employee won't work for low wages, and the change should form within the fan base itself at first.

    "I still really think that Chaotic's fate rests in the hands that are much above ours."
    -we seem to still be lasting under the impression that it's not really in our hands , and what happened isn't a fanbase's fault. blzv it was this attitude the players all had in common that it got us where we are atm Laugh
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    BlzvSprayTan
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by BlzvSprayTan on Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:12 pm

    @Killua34341 wrote:you're supposed to give them a reason to get back just like how an employee won't work for low wages, and the change should form within the fan base itself at first.
    If you think that Chaotic can just 'get back' then you are incorrect. A lot of legal issues are involved. "If Chaotic were to come back, it wouldn't come back exact".

    @Killua34341 wrote:blzv it was this attitude the players all had in common that it got us where we are atm
    Chaotic not paying loyalties got us where we are atm. The community plays the game, it doesn't print and sell the cards. The game is still being played... but the cards aren't still being printed.


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    Killua34341
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by Killua34341 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:49 pm

    @BlzvSprayTan wrote:If you think that Chaotic can just 'get back' then you are incorrect. A lot of legal issues are involved. "If Chaotic were to come back, it wouldn't come back exact".
    @Killua34341 wrote:The game is dead that's for sure and that's what you all should keep in mind,but gathering a huge fan base in case the game is brought up under a different name and/or company , we should also take into consideration that it might never come back
    -Already covered your point.

    @BlzvSprayTan wrote:Chaotic not paying loyalties got us where we are atm. The community plays the game, it doesn't print and sell the cards. The game is still being played... but the cards aren't still being printed.

    @Killua34341 wrote:Chaotic is another victim of the "unforgiving money theory". While it may seem that it's downfall was the lawsuit , but it's just a natural stage of the lifespan of any business ,much like puberty , midlife crisis , the things that could go wrong in life.
    @Killua34341 wrote:Again one might think and blame the lawsuit for this chaos , but it's just natural, and a profitable business should be able to carry on it's journey.

    -The Community you're talking about sir, are a hundred or so players. The game made a show,made a video game,paid the employees, and kept itself as a game. Do some quick calculation and you'll know this budget fed with a 100 players is nothing. Leading to not paying the loyalties , trace back the chain you'll end up with the small fan base at fault.
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    Marrillian
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by Marrillian on Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:50 pm

    No there were many legal issues that are far more complicated that what your making it out to be. When chaotic was in its prime it had WAY more than "100" players. It was an international business and to this day I still run into people randomly who said they liked chaotic "back in the day". It had a large following - with high potential to become much larger. If you have the time and are interested I'll set you up on some things me and blzv dug up. I sent you the pm on how to access it. Its far from complete but you'll see the problems didn't stem from "lack of business". But you do have one thing down, it was definitely the draw of money that played a part in its downfall.
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    Killua34341
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by Killua34341 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:30 pm

    i would need some time to look for every nook and cranny in the mero section(skimmed thru it) , thought i do understand where mero is coming from.As i said chaotic's staff has been so passionate and too kind to tell us that's for one, and that's probably why we're all hanging around ,
    mero wanted to clear that up and say it out bluntly.

    it's best to assume the game is never coming back, for us and for the staff as well. and as you claimed, Yes there has been some money manipulation going on from the core tho i still do think the community does play a major role, even at its prime compared to other games like magic the gathering and the others chaotic was too short-handed for a big budget,hence i think we should work to get a good fan base,be it back or not we'll have fun so are the others in a chat so you won't really lose much.
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    BlzvSprayTan
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by BlzvSprayTan on Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:40 pm

    The mero section isn't the best at explaining, thats just one angle to one lawsuit that Chaotic USA was involved in.

    Im almost positive Chaotic was over 1million players before they received lawsuits and had to stop printing. They were just to greedy to pay their loyalties 'correctly' and they thought their loopholes would work.

    Now, close to 6 years after they stopped printing, there are still about probably over 100 in the community, 10-20 that are very regular.


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    Marrillian
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by Marrillian on Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:11 am

    I don't understand the context of your last sentence blzv


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    Killua34341
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by Killua34341 on Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:12 am

    Chaotic had over 1 million members?
    We need to talk son , get inside the room and close the door.(a traumatizing event occurs), jokes aside, read through the pile of links and reports and you both have done a good job digging that up of all honesty. still that doesn't mean we should be sitting around and wait while the staff fight their own wars in court, gathering up 10,000 fans waiting for the game would be a nice homecoming gift for the staff when they're back Whistle

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    plokjhgfdsa
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by plokjhgfdsa on Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:06 pm

    Gathering fans is easier said than done. Ive actually tried to get a few people into the game and honestly, you must have the patience to understand the game before you fully enjoy it. That is something very hard to convince people to do with the knowledge of no new content. Previous chaotic players are so scattered, its really hard to find them in this cyberspace. Most of them don't even think about chaotic anymore. Killua, how would you propose bringing back or increasing the fanbase?
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    Killua34341
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by Killua34341 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:38 am

    @Killua34341 wrote:Some solutions that would greatly contribute to achieving our target would be:

    A virtual show room,and a chat-A site where videos of our past games,the good times and the bad ones too(montages works too!). you can't have a fan base gathering over nothing,you also can't expect people to join and love a game that doesn't exist no more unless they do witness some of the fun.
    "so they go in the site and see all the videos then what?" it would be a chat, chats are the only thing that could keep people roaming around for years and years , you can call it the waiting lobby until the game comes back (if it does) if not it'll be a memorial, here are some examples of successful chats that have no what-so-ever reason but people flock over them.
    drrrchat.com
    sunnyhome.tk

    Reasons it might work-it would serve as a base/domain,a memorial if it fails or not ,and if it did work you'll get a fan base of 1000+(at least they gain lots more).They can talk about anything they like , however the site's looks must have a chaotic theme and/or the name for example "ChaoticTheChat" might look like a 5 year old's atrocious english, but it got where it counts.

    Posters-Another ironically simple solution would be make a poster of blazvatan(high quality)/or any other card you want,and ask if it's alright to be posted in your local card shop or game store, with the site's name(chat,memorial).When it comes to graphics chaotic has almost alien-ic and out of the world graphics,i have never seen a game so far with graphics as good as chaotic so i'm quite sure it'll pique their interest, no need to beg for people to join as a warning, it happens naturally just like love and other matters.

    Reasons it might work-Chaotic is unmatched when it comes to art , it will attract people who see it undoubtly, socially you might find people who have similar tastes so new friends.
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    BlzvSprayTan
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by BlzvSprayTan on Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:54 pm

    @BlzvSprayTan wrote:Now, close to 6 years after they stopped printing, there are still about probably over 100 in the community, 10-20 that are very regular.

    I was stating that the 100 people that are currently in the community are the ones that have stuck around for 6 years, which is a pretty substantial feat, leading you to believe there was a much much larger population 6 years ago when things were active. What's around now is absolutely not representative of what was 6 years ago, heck 2 years ago.

    Maybe I'm confused between 1 million players, and the business making over a million dollars, but either way we were a bumping community.


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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by plokjhgfdsa on Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:30 pm

    @Killua34341 wrote:
    @Killua34341 wrote:Some solutions that would greatly contribute to achieving our target would be:

    A virtual show room,and a chat-A site where videos of our past games,the good times and the bad ones too(montages works too!). you can't have a fan base gathering over nothing,you also can't expect people to join and love a game that doesn't exist no more unless they do witness some of the fun.
    "so they go in the site and see all the videos then what?" it would be a chat, chats are the only thing that could keep people roaming around for years and years , you can call it the waiting lobby until the game comes back (if it does) if not it'll be a memorial, here are some examples of successful chats that have no what-so-ever reason but people flock over them.
    drrrchat.com
    sunnyhome.tk

    Reasons it might work-it would serve as a base/domain,a memorial if it fails or not ,and if it did work you'll get a fan base of 1000+(at least they gain lots more).They can talk about anything they like , however the site's looks must have a chaotic theme and/or the name for example "ChaoticTheChat" might look like a 5 year old's atrocious english, but it got where it counts.

    Posters-Another ironically simple solution would be make a poster of blazvatan(high quality)/or any other card you want,and ask if it's alright to be posted in your local card shop or game store, with the site's name(chat,memorial).When it comes to graphics chaotic has almost alien-ic and out of the world graphics,i have never seen a game so far with graphics as good as chaotic so i'm quite sure it'll pique their interest, no need to beg for people to join as a warning, it happens naturally just like love and other matters.

    Reasons it might work-Chaotic is unmatched when it comes to art , it will attract people who see it undoubtly, socially you might find people who have similar tastes so new friends.

    As convenient as a chat room does sound, I do believe it will be a waste of time. My reason for believing this is solely due to the fact that chaotic isnt really actually that fun when you look at others play. Try watching hikeda's videos and you might understand what I mean. Unless you know the rules and are interested in how the specific deck works, there really isn't that much out there for other to appreciate. The pictures and posters can be done, but I don't see it gaining mass appeal either. As much as I value your suggestions, I feel they are not going to get the targetted appeal the effort sustains.
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by BlzvSprayTan on Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:24 pm

    Hikeda's videos aren't a good example though. Pretty much all of them are meant for teaching, and the majority of them Hikeda and his deck are better than the opponent.

    When you get even decks that are etremely mechanical with very good entertaining players, it makes it a little more intriguing. With the more mechanical decks, theres a large variety of options to play at any one time which makes what is chosen interesting.

    Its games like when a deck beats its counter deck, etc. that things start getting real.


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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by plokjhgfdsa on Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:31 pm

    Yehh its exciting for us chaotic players but for those who don't understand the game, its not going to make much of a difference. Heck they wouldn't even know which deck counters which. Like for me personally, chaotic isn't a game to be watched but played. You have to experience chaotic as a game or else you wouldn't feel the thrill of it. Like even if you had someone explaining the rules, it wouldn't be the same and to be honest, if I was anyone who didn't know about chaotic, I would not spend time trying to learn about a game that has been dead for a few years.
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    Killua34341
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by Killua34341 on Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:58 am

    Of course living the experience is a 1000 times better than watching,but at this point people cannot live the experience. Thus you need to make do with other solutions.
    i've got a question thought , before you knew the game,before you even knew what chaotic was wasn't it the show that brought you around?. Let's say you didn't Watch, probably you won't get to Live the experience, since you didn't watch. Point is People need to watch "Before" living the experience , since you won't try something before you're interested in it. The show is still around on the net and you can find it ,we might use that to our advantage to get people interested

    About hikeda's videos , some of them are introductory , but we're implementing them for 2 things , a way to release the nostalgic stress (if you would call it that) , and get newer players a dose of the game. as they need to watch before they play hence why we need the virtual showroom , you might also post all the chaotic episodes for interested viewers , the show wasn't bad and did pull in people and showed them a world they never knew about.

    The last part plok mentioned , This is a bit underhanded tho it might be necessary. Call it a coma not death, for the sake of the newer ones. people who couldn't care less would get to chat and enjoy their time , as i gave successful examples of such sites, we need numbers for now and that would be the top priority.
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    Mero123
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by Mero123 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:55 pm

    King, you would be correct that the incorrect payments on royalties are not the only issues of a legal nature. I am sure if you look back, Epic Cycle was another suit filed. To clarify from my perspective..4kids never paid the patent royalty correctly from its inception..the contract for license on the patents was with CUSA(Gannon/Milito)..in lieu of fat salaries and an enormous sign on bonus for both of them, Milito signed a fraudulent contract with 4kids in Dec of 2006. This wasn't discovered by my brother or I until the spring of 07. The game almost never happened...in the summer of 07 a different contract was signed between Cornerstone and 4kids to give them a chance to use the patents on other vehicles(i.e. NFL)..but in a world of legalities 4kids chief legal counsel took it as an arguing point over what contract ruled Chaotic..payments stopped in the last quarter of 08..so you do the math..how many more sets since that time? Also, not to mention the gold packs at 15 dollars a rip..my company got completely screwed on this project..I did think with Home Focus possibly getting their rights back that something might change, however, from my end it has been crickets...(chirp, chirp)
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    Marrillian
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    Re: "Follow the money"

    Post by Marrillian on Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:30 am

    Is the Epic Cycle lawsuit the major thing that most people reference when talking about the downfall of Chaotic? Because its the $500,000 lawsuit, and I remember that number a ton from back in the day when I heard Chaotic was going bankrupt.


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